Why am I donating a kidney?
Julie and I discuss my philosophy of donating my kidney, what it means to me spiritually, and how I think about engaging with my community. Give it a listen! (It’s on YouTube, but it’s just audio with a picture of Julie and me). Or if you prefer, the transcript is below.
Unny
Okay, we're getting started here. Thanks so much for talking to me today, Julie.
Julie
Yeah, excited to have this conversation. Really important topic.
Unny
Yeah. So my name is Unny and I'm going to be donating my kidney at the end of December 2023 or the beginning of January in 2024. And I've had probably dozens if not hundreds of hours of conversations about my kidney donation. But I'm really excited to talk to my friend Julie here today. Julie Knopp, who Julie and I, we have a whole lot in common and we share a lot of values.
Unny
So she's very easy to talk to and a dear friend of mine. But also we've noticed that we have very provocative conversations and we challenge ourselves and we don't agree about everything. And I often leave conversations thinking like, oh, I wish I'd said this as well and oh, I have a retort to that or I can't. I don't have no idea why she said this or that. And so she seemed like a great person to have a thoughtful conversation about my kidney donation.
Unny
And generosity is kind of the theme of this conversation and kind of the questions of like, why am I doing this? What does this all mean? But I think, you know, hopefully we'll hit on a lot of themes. Julie, do you want to say anything else about yourself before we get started?
Julie
No, I don't think so. I think your introduction was perfect. I feel like we get pretty passionate about our ideas, and that leads to some really fun conversations and meaningful conversations too. So I'm excited to dive in and I wonder. Would it be?
Unny
Would you be able to just share a little background about how this idea sprung up as kind of context for this conversation, how the idea of the kidney donation or I honestly, I think that is the topic of this conversation to something. Yeah. I can give you some background information in terms of the conversations I had that, you know, logistically of like what happened but conceptually, but I'm hoping that we'll get to this conversation. So yeah. And if if there's something that when we talk about this that you're like, oh, I, you know, I don't understand, how did you start to think about it that way or what, you know, where where like where did that come from?
Unny
That's a that's a great question to ask me. Or, you know, throw that in because, yeah, I hope we'll cover that and I don't in this conversation, it won't be comprehensive and it won't answer everything and it's not, you know, I think that might be difficult to do. But anything that helps yourself and anybody listening understand like, you know, yeah, how I'm thinking about this and where where this came from. Yeah, I'm really, I think those are great curious questions to ask. Perfect.
Unny
So should I start with kind of the background of the conversations I had? Yeah. So it's probably about 10 years ago, I was talking to a friend who was considering donating her kidney to a friend and she didn't end up doing it because it, the timing just didn't work out. And you know I really understand that now because you know the recovery process is you know that does take some time and you have to time it with the other person. I don't know what happened with regards to her and on that end and you know she had a very demanding job and so I I could see how that could be just difficult to to feel like that's possible.
Unny
But I I don't remember the specifics but somehow I got this mistaken idea that she was thinking that maybe she was getting too old or she was getting too old too soon or something like that. And she's a little younger than me and now that this is like 10 years ago. So I'm much older and there's people much older than me I'm I'm 46 years old as we're recording this much older than me that have donated successfully. So that was a mistaken idea and I I didn't give it a lot of thought or talk to other people about it at that time. So and so I don't know how important that myth was that I had like I don't know if it would have mattered if I like even if then I knew like oh I could donate next year if I would have really thought about it more.
Unny
But I, you know, after that I I have a few friends who have donated kidneys and I've seen it either on social media or heard about it from them, about their experience and they're all very positive about it And and that's you know within the last few years, maybe three or four years and hearing about their experiences, you know I just had some curiosity about it. And there's a part of me that's a little embarrassed. So I'm just going to say that the specific thing kind of look at the trigger that got me to start going is a Facebook ad.
Julie
Right. I forgot that.
Unny
Yeah, so there was.
Julie
A. So unlike you, by the way.
Unny
Well, you know, I'm addicted to screens. We all are, yeah. And time on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube are my those are like the places where I exhibit my screen addiction. But hey, this is as good as screen addictions go because I saw this ad for something about, you know, donating a kidney and I clicked on it. And this is, it's actually funny because I clicked on it and then, you know, it had this little survey like, are you interested in donating a kidney?
Unny
And I'm like, and I just like, filled out the survey. It wasn't, it wasn't very long. And then the next day or really soon after, I got a call and e-mail from a kidney donor mentor and I was just like, okay. I haven't even, like, seriously considered this. I have no idea.
Unny
I don't know anything about kidney donation. And I, like I said this to her before I returned the calls, like, do you know, do you want to talk to me? And she's like, sure, sure. You know, we can talk. No problem.
Unny
You know, like wherever you are. And so I talked to her. I don't remember the conversation exactly. But yeah, so this is a little over a year ago. I can't remember exactly when, maybe August of 2022.
Unny
And then I started doing research. And I, you know, like I said, I've, I've had many conversations with people, friends, medical professional friends, people who donated their kidneys, as I mentioned, I know folks who've done that, that original friend from a long time ago who was considering donating her kidney. And yeah, doing all that research made me compelled to go forward with this.
Julie
That's really powerful and I think two things about it stand out to me. That we tend to demonize social media so much. But there really are some positives. As much as there are pitfalls and concerns. There are.
Julie
It's, you know, it's multifaceted. It's not black or white. And secondly, I like that there were so many different things that led you to this. You know, like there were a hand, like there was the Facebook ad, there was the conversation. There was 10 years ago when you knew that friend who considered donating.
Julie
And I feel like it just reflects some of the other causes we care about and how.
Unny
It often takes so many different things for someone to make a choice or make a transition in their life towards something that's more good or just, yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. And as as I told you, I had some myth, a very lightly held myth, easy, easily, easily shattered once I just heard a little bit more about it. And yeah, and I I think actually all the people I know who donated that I heard about before I considered that was actually was all on social media. I knew the people in person. I met them all originally in person, but then I found out about their kidney donations through some social media post.
Julie
I'm guessing that's affected how you want to approach how you share about this so that it might have some sort of spark for other people as well.
Unny
Wow, you know, I didn't think about it that way. Well, this actually gets to something that I want to talk to you about today. And this is a very subtle challenging thing to communicate that I I I can't really make sense of it. And actually my brother kind of pointed out this contradiction is that on the one hand I, you know this whole conversation about that we're going to have about generosity. I really like the idea of contemplating this and thinking about what this means in my life and and having conversations in community about this and thinking about how how do we all think about generosity and showing love to other people and showing care.
Unny
And obviously, you know, I'm doing this by donating my kidney, but I don't, you know, you know, in all the conversations I've had, I, you know, it's. And as I've learned through this, it's like, yeah, I feel it's also a very, very deeply personal decision. And I I don't want to say that I want to. I'm trying to persuade anybody to give a kidney or even say that I think it's a good idea, especially not yet. I haven't done it yet.
Unny
It's like maybe ask me a few months afterwards, but that this contradiction of the idea of inspiring people to be generous, which in theory might be part of what I'm doing and also not trying to get other people to donate kidneys necessarily. And so, you know, I'm having the conversations right now because it's my own process that I'm trying to tend to, you know, how am I thinking about this whole thing? But obviously it's a conversation with people. You and I are having this right now and people are listening to this and it's like well they're they're going to you know we're all going to ask ourselves these kind of these questions about like our own generosity and and you know, and we're we're talking about donating kidneys. So of course, the people who will think about it one way or the other about, you know, whether they should donate their own kidney or not.
Unny
And.
Julie
Well, I like that you're framing it in terms of kind of broader generosity because I I think while it might inspire some people to donate a kidney, there are just so many people who immediately. Will not be interested in that for one reason or another. But there's still this question of like, how can I be generous in my own life, right? How can I take that example and manifest it in other ways?
Unny
Yeah, definitely. And I think I, you know, I want to have this conversation in part because I, you know, this is the, you know, the surgery will be one day, I'll recover over some time. And I'm thinking about what kind of person I want to be and what I'm growing into and how do I cultivate in myself the kind of values that I think are great. And so it's like it's it's much more than just about my kidney. You know the meaning behind this is is much more than that.
Julie
Right.
Unny
Do you have any thoughts about that contradiction that I was saying? Anymore thoughts about that? Because I I don't know how to navigate that or I've addressed that well.
Julie
Well, say more about what you struggle with.
Unny
Well, the idea of trying to persuade people to give kidneys versus. But it sounds like that's not what you're trying to do, right? But I I think that it can come across that way and I can understand why it comes across that way because I'm having this conversation about generosity and this is how I'm doing generosity.
Julie
It's interesting because I haven't felt that way. Like hearing about it from you. I've felt like, yeah, I felt like it's been broader than that. I felt like, but it's about doing what you can to contribute well in the world. And I don't think that you would necessarily feel like that needs to be in the shape of donating a kidney.
Julie
And I haven't had that sense from you. So I I don't know. I just feel like even having the conversation around generosity broadly is just like setting the stage for not having it necessarily be about a kidney donation, unless that feels right to someone who hears it and it sits well with them.
Unny
Yeah, that's great. And I I'm glad to hear that. You see the way that I'm talking about this, that it doesn't sound like that. And you know, I'll just say it right now, if you're listening to this, I'm not trying to persuade you to give a kidney. I love this idea of having a broader conversation about generosity.
Unny
But if you are thinking you're listening to this, I am not going to donate a kidney. I will never donate a kidney. That's fine. You know, that's I encourage you to live your best life. And I hope that this, you know, seeing me be generous in this way and talking about generosity, is useful in your own journey.
Julie
I like that, yeah.
Unny
So I one of the things that I kind of a grounding part of why I think donating this kidney makes sense to me is that at some really fundamental level, this is the kind of thing that I have. Like I need to make sure to say out loud because it's. I need to bring into the space. Because while I I feel it in my heart, it doesn't, it's not there unless we say it is that. You know I think as a human being, as a person, as a part of this universe that all life, all living beings, all of creation is, you know, I'm a small particular manifestation of that.
Unny
And you know, the molecules that make up my body, you know, come from the same place that make up all of the universe and all of creation and all of being beings. And in that way I believe that like I'm connected to and I'm part of all of reality and all living beings, and being generous is is recognizing that connection.
Julie
Yeah, yeah, I like that. And I I think there's something really powerful in the fact that the donation. You know, you don't know who the donation is going to benefit. And I think gaining closeness in that, kind of like donating a part of your body for someone you don't know and then knowing that that part of your body is in them and benefiting them. I feel like could really cultivate, even in Someone Like You who's already reflected a lot on this, could cultivate greater compassion for like, people who are unknown for strangers and just like.
Julie
Those who we might not consider in our circle of compassion, but because of that kind of very real connection you would have with them, I could see that kind of facilitating some greater compassion for people outside of 1 Circle.
Unny
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's a great way to put it.
Julie
Have you felt like this has had any like impact on you spiritually so far? Just the process or do you anticipate it will impact you spiritually in any way moving forward?
Unny
Yeah, that is such a tough question because, you know, I just think that these kind of spiritual experiences, they're either some things that arise in the moment in a way that, you know, may or may not feel profound in that moment or maybe a little bit later. And that's not something that I can predict or control or it, you know, on the other end of the spectrum, it's more of like a long term contemplation and noticing about what is valuable, what is meaningful in my life. And so, well, I guess I've had that long term in the last year. But yeah, I I think that like, yeah, this is just an open question and you know, I, you know, to get a little meta, it's like that that's well, that's why we're having this conversation right now. It's like I I want to like bring that in the space.
Unny
You know, it's it's tough because sometimes I feel like, oh, I I have, I feel a lot of pressure on myself to like, oh, I I need to like do this, have this conversation, like really delve into this to like really make the most meaning about what I'm doing. And then there's part of me like, hey, you know, if I just donated kidney and don't do anything else and my screen addictions and whatever else I do that is unskillful or whatever, that's that's fine. I mean that's why I can feel good about just doing this one thing, you know, so. But, you know, because I've had so many conversations about this, like way more than I need to just to give the kidney. That's part of why I'm compelled like, OK, well what's the broader meaning here that I'm trying to learn about in myself and and ask with other people that have come along for the journey?
Julie
Yeah, I I wonder. You know, I could be totally off base with this, but it just crosses my mind. You've worked in a lot of like very complex spaces, you know, in animal advocacy, racial justice, this kind of work. And for me, sometimes this kind of work can be challenging to measure outcomes and to know if I've contributed in a meaningful way like has you know, plant based eating advocacy actually resulted in animal lives saved or you know like kind of delving into those questions. And is there anything about this to you that feels attractive because it is so concrete, you know what I mean?
Julie
Like you were mentioning. You're mentioning about like doing this one thing, right? Like I don't. Is there something about the the specificity and the clarity of this that's appealing?
Unny
Oh yeah, definitely. I I I think all the things I do that are really that especially tend to be very tangible visceral bodily experiences that I think are contributing positively in some way. That is definitely like, yeah, I I appreciate the, the clarity of what the outcome is. Yeah. Yeah.
Unny
And that there's definitely a reason to do it. But I, you know, it's always possible to make things more complicated. Yeah. And one thing that I, I mean the way I think about that is yeah. And a lot of the systems, institutional kind of change that I'm really involved in, in my activists and nonprofit life.
Unny
Yeah, those are, those are really difficult to measure. But just because something is easier to measure doesn't necessarily mean it's any better or more more productive or good. And it's like okay. If I'm helping this one person, that might be clear. But, you know, now I've spent this time and energy and resources on doing this one thing that I could have spent somewhere else, and that somewhere else, even if it isn't as tangible, might have had a bigger impact.
Unny
I don't. I don't. I'm okay not trying to measure these things. What I I like the idea of being involved in different ways in in generosity. That and well, maybe if I just do, I don't want to say just do a bunch of things that's that's not quite right.
Unny
But maybe if I lean in, maybe if I yeah, I work in different. Areas of my life, some things that are interpersonal, some things are very, you know, interpersonally giving and then very personal like this kidney donation. Some things that are very much like system change and using my brain like they just provide kind of different opportunities and different potentials.
Julie
Yeah, that's a great point. I appreciate the nuance you're bringing up because, you know, obviously you could be donating a kidney to someone who's doing a lot of harm in the world. And you know that's not. That's not why you're giving it, you know, like you're it's it's, I see you doing a lot of generous acts in a lot of different spaces. You know you love to cook for people you love to do or like you do a lot of, you know, as you mentioned, like systems change work.
Julie
And like, I think it's maybe not about like measuring how much good or not does the donation do ultimately, but more about the act of living generously, right.
Unny
Yeah, but but it's both. I I mean you say measure and even whether or not I'm going to measure or not. But thinking like okay, this is good in this concrete specific way to this person is a measurement or it's like a substantial thing. But it's also, yeah, I mean, just as much like the cultivating the practice. And I think you just said it better yourself right now.
Julie
Yeah.
Unny
Not sure exactly how I phrased it, but yeah, yeah, so.
Julie
Do we want to talk about anonymous generosity versus known generosity?
Unny
Yeah, I mean, you were starting to hit on that. And I something that's come up people have asked me about is, am I going to be in touch with the recipient? And the way it works is that after I donate, if I choose and if the recipient chooses, if we both choose, we can be in touch with each other. And I don't need to make a decision now and I think I'm inclined to feel things out, but I'm almost certain that I will not be in touch with the recipient because because the way, yeah, I mean, this is it's, it's this is challenging for me. But the way that I'm thinking about this anonymous donation is that it isn't about the particular recipient.
Unny
I'm giving as a gift to the universe to, you know, I I know enough about the statistics that, you know, the odds are, you know, likely that what I'm doing will be very helpful. But you know that they don't know that for sure. And then that's good enough for me. And I don't need to know the particular biography or have a relationship with them. And I think, I think I'll be concerned that, yeah, if I think what they're the way they live, they're living, their life is harmful or not in the accordance of my values.
Unny
Or, you know, I've heard some stories of donor recipients having difficult relationships. And and to be fair, this has been between people who know each other, but where they're a recipient doesn't show as much gratitude the donor as the donor would like. And then that's difficult for them. And I'm like, I don't need to get myself into that kind of situation or anything like that. I don't think that's helpful for my process.
Unny
But what I was saying is actually what's difficult about for me is this is not the way I normally operate. I am definitely somebody I want to connect with all kinds of people, any kind of person I have things in common with, you know, just always like reaching out to folks. So this is different and and I think that might be, you know that that's part of what's intriguing and interesting to me is doing something different.
Julie
Well, it's so interesting too, because you're publicly sharing very widely about the donation and but yet the person who's. Benefiting isn't the one who will know. You know what I mean? So it's that's just very, yeah. And you're just so open in general in your life that you think that someone wouldn't, the beneficiary wouldn't know who it was.
Julie
I mean, I think your reasons are really important, you know? And I think doing this huge act of generosity like you don't want to walk away feeling like it wasn't appreciated or feeling like you didn't do. Something valuable, you know, So I feel like it's partially probably like a kind of a self preservation act almost. And I think that's, that's why isn't appropriate considering what you'll be going through when you're healing and whatnot.
Unny
I think that you know I I want one of the reasons that it's helpful to get feedback to in any in any way that I'm being generous is to know that what I've done is actually helpful, right. Like I said the statistics and what I understand about the probabilities and you know the donation itself, I'm going to be under anesthesia like I'm not I don't have any involvement. The surgeons do all of that work and whether that works or not is is not my I don't have the ability to control that very much. So I So I think that sometimes it is good to ask for feedback about like, oh, I tried to do this thing for you. How did that land for you?
Unny
Did that help to know if I want to continue that kind of behavior? Right. But in this particular case, and maybe, like, maybe it's not, you know, like, let's just say that I make cakes for people, which I don't do. But let's just imagine that because I want to, you know, and let's say I've done it dozens of times and I've heard from many people, oh, they really appreciate these cakes. And I can reasonably think, well, I'll continue to make kicks and give them to people.
Unny
And I don't need to get feedback all the time, Right. And yeah, just from what I know about this, it's like, okay, the odds are that people don't like this. And I think that maybe I think it could be good for me to not always need to get feedback about it, about whatever thing that I am doing that I think is being generous.
Julie
Yeah, that's a good point. Do you do you feel like generally the validation has has typically like encouraged you to be more generous?
Unny
Yeah, it has. Well, because if I hear that, yeah, if I hear it's really valuable, then that that motivates me to continue to do it.
Julie
Yeah, I would think so. But you are getting positive feedback from people who are not the beneficiary, but I assume other people who you shared with and. Appreciate your generosity even though they are not the individual beneficiary. So that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely.
Unny
Yeah. I've gotten a lot of positive feedback and including, you know, some of the people I've heard positive feedback from. One really moving piece was, you know, from a friend who has kidney disease and doesn't need a kidney right now. But, you know, but she has health issues and she might may need a kidney in the future and said really moving words about how powerful it is to hear that somebody's donating. And yeah, that's amazing.
Unny
Yeah. And I've heard I've gotten a lot of positive feedback. Something that's coming up for me right now, like in my heart as we're having this conversation is that I just, I have this concern that being so open about this public process is that it sounds as if I'm doing this to get all the praise that that I've been getting. And I don't, yeah, I mean, I can just say that's not true, but. Well, I want to, yeah.
Julie
No, you go ahead.
Unny
I just want to kind of wrestle with the idea and really I I guess you know if if there's something maybe you know I'm having conversation with you. If there's something that that you would see in me of like how do I make sure to to that I I my I'm coming here with the the intentions that I say I am and how do I make sure to cultivate that.
Julie
Yeah. I mean, one thing that stands out is that like you're having a major operation for this. I feel like that's that's a lot to do for like social approval. You know, I feel like that's. That just stands out to me right away of like all of us want to be valued and appreciated.
Unny
I don't think we'd give a kidney for three measures to get social approval.
Julie
Don't think so. But I also, you know, I think you've been upfront about like one of the reasons that you're sharing about this is because you want people to think about these things you might. You know, you're you've said like you're not asking, you're not encouraging anyone to donate a kidney, but you are starting this conversation around generosity. So I think being upfront about some of the reasons why you're being so public about it is is really helpful.
Unny
Yeah, yeah. But okay, I'm gonna just press this just a little bit more. But like as a friend of mine, do you see that? Are there behaviors or indications to you that my words are not in alignment? What what you think I might really be believing, experiencing, or saying in terms of?
Julie
Yeah, absolutely not. No. I feel like I have no reason to think that you would. You wouldn't be speaking in alignment with your truths. I feel like I know you to be pretty direct and sincere about.
Julie
What you think and feel. So that's my experience.
Unny
Well, I'll just put this out to somebody listening if if you see that, you know just something that I should be aware of that for me to contemplate or think about in terms of, you know, making sure that my intentions around here are really what I say they are and how I can. Yeah. How how I can continue to make sure that that's possible. You know, and I'll add I that, you know part of the reason I'm having a lot of these conversations is for my own process is that I, you know, I I've said that before like oh I'm trying to learn about generosity within myself. But also you know I feel like a lot of these conversations are helpful for me to just for the preparation for the community donation itself.
Unny
You know, I just, you know the the whole the whole idea of doing this just brings up lots of questions to me and I just have a lot of curiosity and I feel like having these conversations helps me feel like okay I'm you know what I'm doing makes sense to me and I and I can I can do this in a way that like yeah I'm I'm just I'm I have more clarity about you know, why I'm doing this and what this means and what this is going to be like and such and you know what the recovery will be like and everything, you know.
Julie
A little bit of an aside, but what's your anxiety level around it right now?
Unny
Well, I it's not very high. I feel generally very positive about it. I do notice some, you know, squeamishness around physical injuries and, you know, cutting up my body. And, you know, I'm curious as to how, how sensitive I am about doing that. You know, I've never had major surgery before.
Unny
I've never, like, really been very seriously ill And yeah, so I. So I have some, yeah, some squeamishness and concern about that, but nothing. You know, I think like if if this stays the way it is and, you know, maybe I feel a little bit more of it, closer to the surgery, that'll be fine, you know?
Julie
Yeah. It seems like a healthy, like normal level to be at.
Unny
Yeah. I was going to say the word normal. I think, like I'm an average squeamishness kind of person. But the reason I didn't say that I'm like, well, it's not really what the normal is. The question is what is it like for me, right, Because that's that's the question that I'm asking here, which and actually this is a contradiction I want to bring up, is that I, you know, people are telling me, wow, that's such a generous thing you're doing.
Unny
And I do you agree what I'm doing is generous, but so much of the conversations, so many of the things I'm doing is really just an intense focus on myself and what this whole process is for me and how I'm going to recover. And I'm asking so many friends and family to help me with the recovery process. And you know, I I'm enthusiastic about asking help for myself and because people are very positive about it, it feels like OK, I think that, you know, people will want to give to help make this possible. I'm really depending on other people's help to to to make this viable. So that that seems like a yeah, a contradiction there.
Julie
I mean, I think it would be hard not to have that just because you're doing a selfless act that does take a toll on yourself. To some extent emotionally, but absolutely physically. And it requires support. Like, you know, I don't think you could go about this alone. You couldn't go about this without like requesting support.
Julie
And I I kind of love that the support is an invitation to generosity, you know what I mean? It's not the same level as donating a kidney, but it's like as you request support for people who might care for you as you're recovering or bring you meals. It's just these kind of like many opportunities for people to. Play a very small role in your big gesture and to to have a small, you know, like a instance of their own generosity.
Unny
Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that's part of the process of getting people into the into the whole journey.
Julie
Yeah, but I Do you feel like you should be talking about yourself less? Is that what you're saying with that?
Unny
Well, just just let me back up just a moment. But I I I do know of at least one person who donated it, and it sounds like they did almost nothing to get help with the recovery.
Julie
Yeah, they did.
Unny
That seems unusual, though, to say little that that does seem unusual. It doesn't seem like my style either. Nothing. I want to do that. And even if it went fine for them, but, you know, maybe I could do that.
Unny
I yeah, I don't think that's how I want to do it though. Sorry. What was your question again the?
Julie
Do you feel like you're talking?
Unny
You kind of seem like you were concerned about talking too much about your scene. It seems like it's hard to understand. This has been like a part time job for a year. I'm just talking about this, not just talking about I'm doing things as well, but I've put so much time and energy into it. And yeah, so I guess I wonder about it a little bit.
Unny
But that that brings us full circle back to this conversation itself. Like, well, This is why I'm trying to have, you know, more thoughtful conversation about it to like reflect upon the meaning about it. And yeah, when I, when I talk to people about this and and people you know, a lot of people said oh that's so wonderful, you know, I I tried to engage with them on their life as well.
Julie
Absolutely. And I think the first time that you brought this up to me, you weren't sure about it yet. And I'm sure that those conversations you had with people where you weren't sure about it yet, we're part of the road to your decision to say yes to donating. And so again, like I feel like those conversations were more beneficial than just being about you. Like yeah, you were talking about yourself, but this was towards it ended up leading towards a decision to benefit.
Julie
Someone else?
Unny
Absolutely. Yep.
Julie
Yeah. So how does this connect with the, how you think about generosity in in community and kind of your kind of how you help the friends, family, other people in your lives, in your life?
Unny
Yeah, I think that, you know, one of the things, one of the challenges about generosity and community is that is that it can be a way to really, you know, kind of show care in an in Group or you know some particular people who you know that I have something in common with. And that I think that, you know, there's certain danger to that of like some kind of tribalism or sexism or racism or something where it's like okay, just like the people that are like me, you know, and this is an example of I, if I'm generous to one person in my community, whatever that community might mean, how that like okay, that's very measurable. But actually, you know this bigger picture. It might not be like the best thing to do because because the people who need to help the most aren't necessarily people who are that the ones that I'm connected to.
Julie
That's a really good point.
Unny
And you know, one thing I've learned in the considering a kidney donation is that the people who need the kidneys are often, well, they're very unhealthy. They're often marginalized, you know, and the folks who don't have a friend to give them to, the people who you know don't have the kind of the social connections to to find somebody to give that. And so those those people and that that sounds good to me, the idea of of giving somebody who needs help in that way.
Julie
Yeah, yeah, I like that. I think, you know, this is a little different from what you're saying. But I think about, I often think about this person who I dated a long time ago who was not involved in social justice in any way. And I was kind of like, that's different because it's not kind of the people that I'm associated with. And it kind of surprised me.
Julie
That they didn't seem to have any concern about kind of some of the causes I care about. But over time, I noticed that they were like wildly kind to everyone they interacted with. And it kind of blew my mind because I was like, I actually think this person is doing more good in the world than like me and my social justice crew. And it was, yeah, it was very eye opening and I think there's something really powerful about. The anonymous donation, and that's so like, it feels very like a political, It feels like, very like it's not along these kind of social, political, like intense lines that we've developed in our society that I think kind of restrained so many of us in unhelpful ways.
Julie
I think there's something really like hopeful about that element of it.
Unny
Yeah, absolutely. I I totally agree. I, you know, the the kind of ways if I'm doing community care or, you know, in the organizing work I do, the social change I work, I do. You know, there's always like specific audiences in mind or specific people that I'm working with. And you know that, yeah, they can be exclusionary variously.
Unny
But the idea of just doing anonymously isn't like a way to connect beyond any kind of divine, you know, and I I really, I, I, I, you know, I feel like this is like a tenet of nonviolence is that, you know, we we embrace and show care for everybody regardless of beliefs or identities and such. And that's something I believe in. And I don't think I practice very often. And this is one of the ways that I'm doing that, but I really think that. It's best to think about systems change social justice interpersonal care anonymous things all of these things as being mirrors of each other of influencing each other of learning like learning ways we we when we learn in one area we learn to give another area.
Unny
When we cultivate you know kindness and generosity in one space and we we bring it to another space and and we notice what are the you know what are the things that help us to more consistently and more often and more and more places and ways to feel care and love for for everybody And that's yeah I mean that's that's part of like the journey of of living to try to like live a more fulfilling life and and it's and this is part of that.
Julie
Absolutely. I love that framing, and I feel like it'll be interesting for you to journey through, like how this mirrors to other areas of your life and the way that you kind of contribute to good in the world.
Unny
I got pretty abstract there. You were tracking.
Julie
That, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that makes a lot of sense. I also think it's interesting going back to what you said earlier about how you want this to be. Kind of, I'll just say radically inclusive kind of act, but at the same time, you don't want to know who it goes to be, in part because you have some concern that it may sit uncomfortably with you if the person does not necessarily share your values. I just think that's an interesting kind of juxtaposition there.
Unny
Yeah. So maybe if I was open to connecting with the person and then I did learn this person is somebody who's very different than me. So odds are pretty good that that's the case. Kind of unusual person, right? And don't don't do a lot of conventional things that that maybe if I did connect with that person, that is an opportunity for myself to kind of deepen my like practice of feeling compassion towards somebody who's very different from me.
Julie
That's a that's a good point. And I also think even if you didn't know, it could deepen the compassion though like I'm just knowing like that your kidney could be benefiting someone of any political or social you know background and that could that could also you know like open your heart more to certain kinds of people just like ruminating on that. But definitely, you know, perhaps more so if you you had a specific kind of person in mind who broke down, Maybe some. Assumptions you had or yeah.
Unny
Well, like I said, I'm not committed to it. So maybe it's something I can think about and I don't have to decide now that's good. But you know, I guess what I'm curious about too is I'm like well, how is there anything quite like this like donating a kidney? I mean it's like it's just different and maybe that's kind of draw to me. It's like such a curious thing.
Unny
I mean, I don't know. You know, once I do this, I guess it's possible to donate part of your liver. I I don't know all that much about it and I think that people have done both. But I kind of feel like I'm on one and done kind of I'll donate this and then that. Like that's good enough.
Unny
I want to do something else in my life. But I, I, what I noticed is that, like, when I think about like, oh, cultivating this way of living of like trying to learn to show love and care for all creation for all life through this process, it's like, well, when I do this, then what? Like what's the next thing I do? And I'm like, what? What can I do?
Unny
That's it doesn't have to be anything like this to show to to live that. But I'm like, there's something very particular about donating a piece of your body and having a major surgery and having going to one person. That's very, yeah.
Julie
It is very particular, yeah.
Unny
I don't know.
Julie
For sure, yeah. There's nothing I can think of to compare it to. And I feel like even just what you were saying about this being like a parttime job, it's like not only has this been like an A personal and kind of spiritual journey for you, but it's also like I'm just imagining you've learned so much. And like, there's just been A and there's been a lot of things you've had to boxes, you've had to check out, to check off to get to where you're at with this.
Unny
Yeah, I I hope I've learned a lot. We'll see. We'll see.
Julie
Do you have any particular thoughts on kind of just the idea of giving something directly from your physical body and that kind of interpersonal generosity?
Unny
Yeah, that's a tough question. I think that, like, I really like embodied ways of living. And, you know, and you know, I won't say there's a contradiction, but some different ways I live my life are, you know, I like to do triathlons and cook food and eat food. And I spend a lot of time in front of the computer writing emails and communicating electronically to try to make change and policies of, you know, various institutions. And those are very different kind of things.
Unny
And this is really that this is like really on the, you know, very visceral personal end of things. And so this, this is the way that I'm engaging with with that right now and I can't remember what I was going with this.
Julie
Well, I I'm just interested to hear more about yeah, how this plugs into like your greater you mentioned earlier about doing different kinds of. I don't know how you would frame it, but like doing different kinds of making different kinds of contributions positively in the community, like doing system work, doing you know, more like interpersonal things that are beneficial interpersonally. And yeah, I guess like how do you think about this in terms of the bigger work you've done is by bigger I just mean it feels like it's been longer term that you've worked on, you know kind of some of the. Justice and equity work that you've been involved with. Does this, like, how does this sit within that, like that worldview?
Unny
Yeah, I think, I think what I was trying to say there is that this is, you know, an end of a spectrum of of a way of living in the world of being very interpersonal, very, very personal, very, you know, really about my body and you know, giving a piece of my body away that's like that's like one end of it. And yeah, I guess I guess maybe I'm experimenting with that end, seeing what that's like to give in that end. And I don't, you know, I said earlier I said one and done. I'm like, it doesn't mean that I'm going to continue to give in these kind of ways. But yeah, maybe.
Unny
Maybe there's something here about, like trying to live a very full life. And maybe what that means to me is that I wanna try very different things in my life and not do things. They're all just the same.
Julie
Yeah, yeah. I was thinking recently about the I think there's been some research around people. Regretting more the things they didn't do than the things that they did in their life. And I feel like, and again, not that everybody should run out and donate a kidney who's listening, but I I do think like with your process, like at this point I think this is going. I hope that this will be something you look back at as being part of living a really full life and something that I think at this point maybe if you didn't do it.
Julie
Yeah, that you might feel some regret around that just because you've. I feel like you've put a lot of. Thought and energy and and yeah, there's been a lot that you've put into this so far and I think it's meaningful for you as well as others.
Unny
I I noticed that, you know, life is unpredictable and things could come up between now and the donation that make the donation impossible, right. And that it would that would be hard for me because I've been like growing so much because I've been thinking about this so much and talking about it and preparing with in community that I might be having some kind of expectation about what my life is going to look like. And I know that isn't wise to have too many expectations and.
Julie
It's out of your control to a certain extent, yeah, exactly.
Unny
There's just a lot of, there's a lot things can change and a lot of things that are not under my control. So yeah, I I hope to have some humility about that and what's going to happen in life is going to happen. You know, one thing I appreciate and I've heard multiple times from people who have donated kidneys, they they said it is heroic and wonderful and amazing that you're even thinking about giving a kidney. And maybe they're hearing from the same place of like this the message that they should be saying out in the world. But whatever the case is, yeah, I hope that.
Unny
And I hope with all the conversations I've had with people that both the the thinking that I'm, you know, that we're talking about today and like what's in my heart. And then also the folks I've talked about that have learned things about communion that have thought about it and and thought about generosity and what these things mean, that I hope that that's helpful. Whatever ends up happening with the communion, and you know, I don't have any reason to believe that it won't happen every everything is green.
Julie
Light, Right. But you never know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Julie
And, you know, I also want to go back to what you mentioned earlier about this being kind of a very particular or far end of the spectrum of the ways that you've engaged with community being kind of different from some of the other forms of activism and other kinds of contribution. And it is really interesting like. I think about the ways that I feel like I've contributed and so much of them are around like time and energy and even mental space. Right. Like especially in like a in the from the lens of animal advocacy how that can kind of be taxing on on mental health.
Julie
But the idea of like it being so physical and so like again like so direct and concrete is just. It's very different from any kind of like giving I've done. So I didn't just find that interesting around about what you're doing.
Unny
Definitely, yeah. I think that you're pointing out those those very dimensions.
Julie
Yeah, What else would you like to talk about?
Unny
I think we covered it.
Julie
We did.
Unny
Julie Do.
Julie
This was a good conversation.
Unny
I hope so too. I hope. I hope that people appreciate it.
Julie
I feel like I learned a lot of new things about your your thought process and I feel like it's sparked. New questions for me. So I appreciate it.
Unny
New questions for you to contemplate within your own life now. Yeah, exactly. Right now, yeah.
Julie
Exactly. Yeah. Great.
Unny
OK. Well, thanks for this and I hope everybody listening appreciates this learns from this. I think that you might have a sense about what I'm hoping for for you in this conversation just from the things that we've talked about here. And I want to invite you to give me feedback, ask the questions, whatever questions that you have about my process to talk to me. And I'm generally open having conversations about this donation.
Unny
Yeah. Any last words, Julie?
Julie
No, I just appreciate your example of generosity and I really appreciate your openness in these conversations. I think it's rich. It's really, it's good, good stuff to explore. So thanks, Annie.
Unny
Thank you so much, Julie.